Obama’s Imperial Decree: Target Oklahoma
06. Aug, 2009 
170 Comments
by Bryce Shonka
Remember the good old days, when one only had to watch out for the Federal Government’s twisted interpretation of the commerce clause to justify tyranny?
Well those days seem to be long gone. The Obama Administration has been employing an old tactic lately – what some might call an imperial threat – and they’re not doing it overseas, either.
STATES UNDER THREAT
The state of Oklahoma is now the target of a direct challenge from US Attorney General Eric Holder, who is using the Civil Rights Act of 1964 as justification to violate Oklahoma’s sovereignty as affirmed by the Tenth Amendment to the US Constitution.
In a letter written to the State Attorney General in April, the Federal government used aggressive language, bringing up the possibility of withholding Federal funds appropriated for Oklahoma. The reason? A proposed amendment to the State Constitution, which requires voter approval, that would make English the official language of the State.
“What it indicates is the Federal Government’s contempt for the states, in this case Oklahoma, and for the idea of federal — as opposed to national — government. AG Holder believes that Oklahoma is an administrative subdivision of the USA, and that it is perfectly right for him to coerce Oklahomans to do his will. Who cares whether he has ever been to Oklahoma, met an Oklahoman, or thought about Oklahoma?” said Kevin Gutzman, an American historian and New York Times bestselling author.
Oklahoma is not alone as a state challenged by central authority in recent months. Recently, federal firearms licensees in Tennessee and Montana received a letter from another Federal agency, the ATF, who had also issued a decree wrought with hubris – claims by the Federal government of their legal supremacy across the land.
DESTROYING LOCAL GOVERNMENT
“Both of these letters, particularly this letter to the Attorney General of Oklahoma, are very officious,” observed Rob Natelson, professor of law at the University of Montana. “It reminds one eerily of the kinds of communications that started to come out from the Emperor to the local cities of the Roman Empire, beginning the course of the ultimate destruction of local government.”
Professor Natelson is a widely-recognized expert on the framing and adoption of the United States Constitution, and on several occasions, he has been the first to uncover key background facts about the Constitution’s meaning. I knew this before our conversation. What I didn’t know, however, was that he’s also been studying Roman Law and history for the past 50 years, and is responsible for several works in that field.
“During the 2nd century AD, the Roman Emperors began increasingly to interfere with local government and they did this with…letters…letters that look something like this,” continued Natelson, indicating the letter from Holder to Oklahoma. “They started out as almost advisory and they got increasingly peremptory. By the end of the 2nd century, there was very little local government left. You had very few people, therefore, willing to participate in local elections; very little patriotic spirit towards one’s own province or city. And this was the harbinger for the ultimate centralization of the Roman Empire.”
He continued with a strong, decisive tone, “Almost everyone who’s studied in that area agrees that the effect was to sap the life out of the empire, so that everything flowed to the center. All that counted was the Emperor and his bureaucrats…and his courtiers. I look at this and I see this letter which gets close to looking like an order from the central government down to a sovereign state legislature, and I say…WOW. This looks like something that Septimius Severus would have sent to the local officials.”
In Columbus, Ohio last weekend, a rally in support of State Sovereignty drew around 7,000 people. Judge Andrew Napolitano addressed the rally and made similar comments indicating the nature of our current point in US history.
“In the long history of the world, very few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its maximum hour of danger. This is that moment and you are that generation”
IMPERIALISM AND DECLINE
Are these men ‘crying wolf’?
“Some people might think that’s a far fetched analogy but I can’t emphasize enough how important this development is seen by historians. When people think of the collapse of the Roman Empire they think of the fall of Rome in 476 AD. The conversion of Rome from a relatively free state – almost a Federation – into a totalitarian state, really picked up speed and accelerated during the 2nd century [AD], with this increasing intermeddling by the central authorities in local state government. That’s what it reminded me of,” recalled Natelson.
“[The DOJ] are not violating any law by sending these letters, but there’s a change in tone, there’s a new and disturbing tone in them. At least the ATF letter was addressed to individuals. This one is addressed to a state legislature – really, it’s a bit much. Besides the fact that there’s the tone, there’s the fact that they sent the letters at all. Most of the letters that were sent out by the emperor were called rescripts, and that’s almost what [the letter from Holder] looks like. The one difference is that a rescript was usually a reply to a request for advice. In some ways this is worse than a rescript because this is unsolicited. A better way to compare it would be to an imperial constitutio – an imperial decision or decree.” Natelson added.
His Roman analogy is worth considering, for several reasons. Rome may have ended up a brutal dictatorship, but it began through a series of treaties between regions, and in some ways parallels present day America.
“When you draw comparisons between the U.S. and ancient Rome, you have to be very cautious, though Rome does have lessons to offer us and the history and results of the relentless centralization of the Empire is one of them,” Natelson continued.
THE OTHER WAY AROUND
If there’s a case to be made that the US is headed for the same sort of central plan that sucks the life out of a Republic, it would be difficult to imagine who in the United States could be encouraged by such a trend, outside of DC’s beltway.
“Certainly state legislators in Oklahoma and congressmen from Oklahoma should put the Federal Government on notice that they will support a substantial reduction in the budget for Holder’s portion of the federal bureaucracy so long as he is trying to coerce them in this way.” recommended Gutzman.
Worldwide trends in recent political elections do exhibit signs of a move away from central planner candidates, a trend the United States has been contrary to for nearly a decade, but perhaps the pendulum has reversed itself.
“As the economy grows increasingly complicated, increasingly interdependent and increasingly technological, centralized control (which never worked very well) works less and less, and people are less willing to stand for it. This reflects a visceral gut reaction people have against centralized control, because they know from their own life it makes no sense, though it always takes time for those mega-trends to filter into the political class,” Natelson continued. “Eventually, when a mule gets hit over the head enough times it figures out what’s going on, and eventually the politicians will figure out what’s going on, too.”
People in the US are coming together by the thousands, demanding decentralization and nullification of Federal powers. Never before have the political elites had to contend with a non-partisan political force on such a massive scale. A storm seems to be brewing; a maelstrom of everyday Americans rallying around the document designed to keep the government in fear of the people – instead of the other way around.
Bryce Shonka [send him email] is Media and Grassroots director for the TenthAmendmentCenter
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Hi Micheal,
I think you kind of missed my point.The Tea Party is in truth focused on federal issues,mainly now the health Care.Also cap and trade.
I agree with you we need to focus on State issues,what I am trying to say we should unite for the purpose of expanding the vision of the Tea Party to
include and see the The tenth Admendment solutions as viable solutions to end the tyranny of the federal government.
The concept of withholding state revenues from the feds is brilliant,if they aint got it they can’t spend it and they can’t withhold it.
Also a national filing of extensions on the federal income tax on a national scale would send the feds reeling in chaos.
My point is the tenth admendment movement is showing strong reasonable leadership intelligence to help govern and solidify a national movement that needs strong leadership and needs it now.We should join the local Tea Party groups nationwide to help focus on attacks against the communists in Washington at the local level.
We the people unite and prevail in a mass audience or we the people die brother,these communists know they are communists.These communists have their goal and thier marching orders,we need to wake up and see this is an enemy whose ultimate goal is to kill us,get this in your minds and understand they will spill our blood,they have already labeled us,your etiher for us or your against us,your either part of the problem or part of the solution,and thier solution is communism.
Let us put aside our different brands of focusm,the battle is on many fronts.What will prevail is when we carefully keep any and all decisive comments to ourselves and let the attack of dividing us be outside of us.
In this manner we can advance our thrusts of counter attack at the enemy and not at the army we march with.
This is very important that we remain steadfast in our united attack.
The conservative is a great united ally.Why? We are united in thoughts and deeds,we can agree with each other core principles.
To these principles we unite,to these principles we defend,to these liberties we remain,to the common cause of liberty let us roar our voices in one accord.And yes let us with all zeal fight for the rights of each State to write and enforce the law of the land without any interference from the feds.
God speed to all of us,the battle is mighty and rages,let us know it is our very lives at stake and not shrink back.
Love you one and all and love what you are saying and doing.
Tawny,
What would you have us do? Just give up because everyone else is so “stupid and ignorant” that we don’t have a chance?
Also, you misread everyone on this site. They all understand how our Constitution has been trashed. But this site is about fighting back – learning – discussing strategy – not sitting around talking about how bad everything is and how hopeless it all is because everyone else is so stupid & ignorant.
So! Stop being a discourager & become part of the movement to reconstruct America! Learn, learn, & learn some more and then educate those within your own spheres of influence. THAT is one of the ways we take our country back. PH
From what is happening in this country you can now understand why the southern states succeded from the union. At that time the looney bin boys were trying to tell the states what they could and could not do, states rights not slavery was the real reason for the civil war, and ole abe thought the blacks inferior and should be shipped to some island. Some of the clear thinkers said uh, no abe it makes you look like you don’t support your emancipation, opps.Here is a list of bills that you can go to library of congress and read, if this doesn’t add up to a complete takeover of our rights and freedom, then you are blind, H.R 875 Food Safety Modernization Act 2009,now H.R 2749, H.R 256 David Ray Hate Crimes Prevention Act, H.R 1913 Local Law Enforcement Hate Crimes Prevention Act of 2009,H.R 45 Blair Hlt Firearm Licensing and Record Sale Act 2009,H.R 2159 Denying Firearms And Explosives To Dangerous Terroist Act 2009, H.R 262 Sets up federal hate crimes centers,H.R 808 Dept. of Peace Act (new one, 111 congress). If these bills do not raise the hair on your back I don’t think you are paying attention.Now these NAZI thugs are trying to ram this H.R 3200 health care, who’s health, surely not ours. All of you who had the guilt to have to vote for B O now have NAZI SOCIALISM. For all the rest of us we need to go after the thugs and get them out of our country
Just a quick FYI to everyone tracking the comments on this article. Some news today – Alabama is now considering a sovereignty resolution too. See the article here:
http://www.tenthamendmentcenter.com/2009/08/11/alabama-to-consider-sovereignty-under-the-10th-amendment/
Publius,
First, to get a picture of just what deep doo doo we are in, and how little time we probably have, listen to this …
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuVD-xCcxpw&feature=related
I don’t mean to come across as hostile or anything like that. I appreciate the people posting here, and appreciate that they are more awake and aware than most of the sheeple. I just think that most of the people posting here don’t realize that we have what amounts to organized crime running the country (and the world) now, and the situation is WAY grimmer (and our destruction way farther advanced) than you/they realize.
I think by and large the posts/comments, and the solutions being contemplated here, are naive. Don’t pour your energy down a hole; don’t follow rabbit trails that lead to bramble thickets; don’t put your hopes behind hopeless/impractical/naive ’solutions’ that are almost certainly bound to amount to less than a hill of beans, is what I am saying.
The fed govt. met seccession with force once. Don’t you think that an even bigger and even more controlled govt would probably do the same thing this time?
And realistically — would more than a minority of the people support seccession? No.
And these ‘resolutions’ about sovereignty… resolutions sound good but they have no force of law.
Re the Boleshevik Revolution (someone here posted a comment about its ’causes’), it was funded by Western capital, just like most of the collectivist revolutions (I think all of them). Read the books of Antony Sutton, like WALL STREET AND THE BOLESHEVIK REVOLUTION, wherein he documents the funding/support/inception of and grand plan behind that op.
If the states would pass a short bill to impose a 100% tax on all Federal money being spent within their borders then Governors would be in the position to make sure proper distribution or rejection of federally funded targets occurred. Federally owned facilities and federal employee pay would need to be excluded.
Federal earmarks and other funding directed to politically favored entities within a state have the net result of undermining the power of state governments and have a diminishing effect on the role of Governor. This has to be brought under control, put the Governor back in control!!
Tawny!
There you go again!
(1) Do you really mean to tell us on this site that WE are ignorant of what’s going on? I expect you do not intend to be insulting, but you are!
(2) What do YOU suggest we do? Sit around and feel bad & hopeless; but superior to all those “ignorant & stupid” people out there?
(3) If you keep this up, I will think you are working for the enemy; that your mission is to neutralize us, and the tactic you have chosen is Dispair.
Go rent, borrow, or buy the entire Lord of the Rings trilogy – either the books or the Dvds, or both. You need an attitude adjustment! That is a masterpiece and teaches us much about fighting evil. We can not accomodate it, we can not accept it; we must fight it, we must defeat it.
Don’t be so quick to call people (especially those you don’t know) ignorant or naive! We need warriors; not people insisting that the battle is lost and that only the ignorant & naive think we have a chance. PH
Re Tawny’s claims of “no public support”: Sure, she may have personally spoken to a few people — likely less than 10. Has she spoken to all 305 million inhabitants of America? NO. Therefore, her claim holds no water.
It is not use trying to talk sense into someone whose mind is not only closed, but locked up tight. A defeatist will never acknowledge that there is any reason for hope, because a defeatist does not WANT to believe there is any reason for hope.
Correction to a typo in what I just posted: It should be “it is no use”, rather than “it is not use”.
Yes, but I am hoping to convert Tawny from a Defeated Victim into a Warrior Woman.
The 300 is another great movie about fighting evil. It doesn’t matter what the odds are – one fights Evil nevertheless just because it is Evil and must be defeated. And somehow God always intervenes…….
Michael Boldin:
You have set up a wonderful site and it is true that States should learn about & practice State Sovereignity, nullification, etc.
But, this is a battle we can fight on two fronts: We can not change the minds of the statist politicians, judges, appointees & bureaucrats. BUT, we can defeat the statist politicians in the next election and (depending on state law) recall bad U.S. Senators whose terms do not expire by 2010.
In the next election, and by recalling U.S. Senators whose terms do not expire in 2010 (including, but not limited to the bland RINO wus, Lamar Alexander of Tennessee), we could take over Congress in 1 & 1/2 years.
Once in control, we could commence impeaching & convicting other elected officials, the thugs in the Executive Branch, and a whole host of federal judges. We could dismantle unconstitutional agencies in the executive branch (education, health & welfare, housing, etc., etc.).
One of the many myths perpertrated in our land today is that judges have “lifetime” appointments. Most people think judges can be impeached & removed only for really bad “crimes”. But that is not true! In the Federalist Papers, No. 81 (9th paragraph) Hamilton shows that judges can be impeached & removed for usurpations; and in No. 66 (2nd para), so can presidents!
There is an excellent article showing that the phrase, “High Crimes and Misdemeanors” at Art. II, §4, doesn’t mean “high” in the sense of very, very bad (worse than lying under oath); but means an offense committed by a person in HIGH office. I can dig up the cite if anyone wants.
The Federalist Papers are a powerful weapon for our side. Every position we wish to take – which we may need to take – to restore our constitutional republic is authorized & santified in The Federalist Papers. The Federalist Papers are GREAT! Look at No. 46 (7th – 9th paras), where our own James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution, & former President of the United States, spoke of the need for an armed citizenry – the Militia – to resist & defeat the regular army of the federal government if it extended its power beyond the due limits.
The “Militia” ARE “The People”. Many references in The Federalist Papers show this. The Militia are The People who were well armed almost two hundred years before the Second Amendment was drafted. The “Militia” are the armed citizens – the natural defenders of home, family, community, and country. See also, The Militia Act of 1792, 2nd Congress, session 1, ch. 33, vol 1 page 271
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llsl&fileName=001/llsl001.db&recNum=394
I seek to defeat the enemy politically, if we can. PH
I’m by no means an expert in Constitutional and federal tax law, but the idea of not paying federal taxes in return for not recieving federal money (ours) back is not a cut and dry issue. Federal money in our states is far reaching. In Oklahoma alone we have 4 military bases and the main ammunition manufacturing plant in the US. As much as I hate what is happening to this country, I don’t see the feds allowing us to just stop paying federal taxes. What would Judge Napolitano recommend?
To those who say, oh too bad tawny has such bad attitude, is so negative, so defeatist….
The focus here should be on information, not ad hominem personal attacks.
See/hear this Infowars Aug 5 show on You Tube with Steve Quayle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuVD-xCcxpw&feature=related
Also check this out:
http://www.stevequayle.com/News.alert/08_Hawk/080814.Hawk.html
CHECK THESE THINGS OUT – DON’T JUST DIS ME. IT’S NOT ABOUT ME. IT’S ABOUT INFORMATION AND WHAT OUR SITUATION ACTUALLY IS RIGHT NOW. AND THE HOUR IS LATE.
I have in general been trying to tell you that we have very little time now. The elites are making their move to bring down the USA – NOW. It is soon going to get very bad.
1.)We don’t have time for the kinds of things you guys are discussing. AND –
2.)Your assessment of our situation is, it appears from your comments, inaccurate in a second way, and that is that the corruption is really deep in our (sic) and most other governments in the world today. Most of you who have commented seem not to grasp that. The kind of reforms you are discussing presuppose a government responsive to the people. That is just NOT what we have now and have not had for a very long time. It is now a government of by and for the American/European corporate banking elite – it is a very well entrenched fascist oligarchy in control of our country’s centers of power and masquerading as a govt. of by and for the people.
My intention here is to dialogue on issues/information, not get into personal remarks, which accomplishes nothing and is basically off-point.
On this talk of taxes – The 16th Amendment has the potential to be vastly misused by the federal government in its present form and I cannot understand the wisdom or logic behind why it was ever ratified as it is written. Some among us say it was never properly ratified but don’t hold to that, it will never fly. They almost have us nailed on this one. Here’s how it reads:
“The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.”
Webster defines apportion “to divide and share out according to a plan; especially: to make a proportionate division or distribution of”
They Almost Have Us – You can bet proponents have studied all of this until the pages were threadbare but in the end it is all about interpretation by the Justices and the preponderance of supportive evidence. How may of you have heard it said, “For the first four months of the year I am a working for the government”? This refers to graphing the actual tax percentage of one’s income reflected in calendar months. Does anybody voluntarily pay federal taxes? The tax people claim that we have a “voluntary” tax system. Don’t go and not pay your taxes because it does not mean what you might think. It just means that it is voluntary for you to pay taxes and file your return but if you don’t, you’ll find out just how “voluntary” it all is. This legal positioning using the word “voluntary” is important because it would seem to imply and be arguably held that the federal government is not forcing you to perform unwilling labor. In the old days, taxes weren’t very high so you would sound like a whiner if you refused to pay a few bucks to Uncle Sam. Not true today, taxes have become a massive part of our incomes and expected only to increase which, by virtue of scale, lands federal taxation right within the bounds of the 13th Amendment.
Here’s the Key – The 13th Amendment – reads:
Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
Section 2. Congress shall have the power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.
The important part (not that freeing the slaves wasn’t) for our discussion is “involuntary servitude”. Payment of taxes is payment of debt incurred in the form of taxes as you earn money and, for most Americans, involves working against our free will, unless you just want to work and give money freely to the government. Unfree labor or labor not willingly given can be defined as causing or threatening to cause financial harm [using financial control over] to any person. In addition, tax penalties and tax code violation imprisonment do cause undisputed financial harm. See how this plays out in:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
The Way Out – As you can see, there is a possible way out but good frigging luck. I don’t even think Judge Andrew Napolitano could come up with a plausible scenario to sue for a solution. This would take a massive awakening by Americans who are fed up and just don’t want to walk down the Socialist path.
To tie this back to the 10th Amendment – I believe States have more potential than we all think. They should be able to control how money is being spent within their borders or else intrastate monopolies, carefully dodging the federal “commerce clause”, would form to the detriment of the state’s citizens. In this respect, I believe the feds are still scratching their heads over how to proceed with state regulated health care insurers in light of HR-3200. I posted a short blip earlier where I suggested states levee a 100% tax on inbound federal money with some exclusions. This would effectively create a state level clearing house for earmarks, stimulus, and political spending (typically used to buy voters) that would provide the necessary checks and balances against abusive federal government spending. In effect, if we must pay federal taxes, then so be it, but don’t have to give them a place to spend it. Sanity is restored.
Concerning the issues raised by Tawny. I agree with you Tawny.YOu are correct your assessment is correct.However so is the assessment of the people here attempting to reign in the Feds and also using the states power to do so.We have battle fronts and this is just one of them.The pressure we place on the government leaders is effective. To resist the Fascist and the world banking elites on every front is needed to win this war.
furthermore you are correct however you have to get mad,you have to get angry and look for weak points in this viscious system we are facing.
It is not to late unless we cannot breath. Trust me all of this put together is forming a national ressistance that needs to be nurtured and encouraged.The more it is the more invincible we become.There are many battles and many leaders and followers on many fronts focused on the many issues of criminal activity of the opposing side.We need to be united and we need to encourage each other to continue the fight where in we are called. The sheer volume of dissent is creating a powerful front that is rerouting the enemy at every turn.It is good to create more battle lines than the enemy can manage by doing this we will stretch thier lines thin and weakon thier attacks forward and also destroy thier lies and lines of entrenchment.
You are right brother your eyes see the truth but so does this mighty fortress of truth here see as well. So trust me fighting in the micro has an effect on the macro as well.
Be brave one and all fight and watch with great diligence and fortitude.Unite and stand for the truth.
Warmest Regards,
Martin Walt
Martin,
Thanks for your comment, it is much appreciated.
I agree – don’t give up. The thrust of my remarks is not to give up, it is more like — ‘think smarter’. As Alex Jones once said on air, ‘There isn’t time to be idiots anymore!’
btw I do agree that if the states will stand up to and oppose the ongoing overthrow/conquest of us and our nation, by all means work on that angle and support them.
I might be older than a lot of the posters here. I am a studious/thoughtful type, and have had time to do it, and have been studying this for over 25 years. It is really hard, seeing what is coming down. It is both heart-breaking, and very scary. I have family who it will break my heart if anything happens to them. I think about them constantly. And I feel so bad for all of us, not just in this country – the whole exploited, ripped off world.
We are between the rock and the hard place. What to do is the big question. One thing is to keep learning. We have to know enough to know what to say yes to and no to in the way of proposed reforms and strategies. Try to alert others, spread the word, and also try to talk to law enforcement and military and those in local government, tell them that they too are expendable, and to side with their countrymen, not with the elites, who are, many of them, not even American and are totally ruthless and anti-populist.
Hello all,
I agree with you all on your many points. However, I’m not one for talking much. I’m about action. Will you all please join me in my call to action and spread the word?
I have just emailed over 3000 news entities via Roll Call on Congress.org with my “Challenge to the Powers that Be.” You can read that letter at: http://www.fracamerica.org/letter.html
I am not attempting to be the only organization or replace others. It is my goal to bring SOLIDARITY to all the movements, groups, and individuals across the nation under one banner that shows the corrupt powers that be that we are not just a few thousand here and there, but a nation of MILLIONS who will not put up with this.
Stage 1 is Solidarity. Stage 2 is organizing the efforts you all are talking about, particularly with the State issues as this site is focused on. Without Solidarity in Stage 1, Stage 2 will not succeed.
JOIN MY “ARMY” AND HELP SPREAD THE WORD. It takes money to fund the fight for freedom too. Help us bring the nation together and fund the fight for freedom.
Thank you for your support.
Jeff Pritchard,
founder of http://www.fracamerica.org
Tawny,
The Feds came down on the south to stop secession in a way that many scholars felt was unconstitutional. Regardless, they had the guns and did it anyway.
The reason the 10th Amendment/Sovereignty movement is different lies in the cause, which could very well include all 50 states in the future. It’s not secession that is the goal, but rather something that most average people can get behind.
The Feds would not have troops to draw from if all 50 states got on board. They would not have the manpower and would be forced to capitulate.
The Western States should lead the way….separating themselves from the teats of (and control of) that dirty fat hog known as the federal government. The federal government is NOT for the Constitution or the basic freedoms and rights that formed the basis of this Nation. It should be no secret to anyone that if Obama and his supporters (and many Republicans, for that matter) could toss out the Consitution, and just make whatever laws that are felt are “necessary”, they certainly would. For example, I see no mention in the current health care debates that the federal government’s proposed intervention is not only unwarranted, but unconstitutional. Everyone just “accepts” that the government can do it (or are afraid to challenge it). This has been getting worse and worse, ever since the Supreme Court (and federal courts) started to get packed with “yes men” after many of the New Deal laws were struck down. We need to free ourselves from these self-imposed shackles. It not only is our right, but our DUTY to ourselves and are offspring.
Hearing about a meeting in Annapolis MARYLAND soon. Anyone know about it or contact info?
I have never been on this website and I want to know about your organization holding a meeting here in Annapolis
We owe Emporer Obama much. Please hear me out: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2098397/what_has_obama_done_and_what_do_we.html?cat=3
Well the health care got a set back by Independent Senator Lieberman,who went to Obama and told him that this is not a good time to push the health care through with the nation in such a severe Reccession,and WITH all of the heated discussion from the people against it.So we see that our noise and public protest is working and it is pushing back the demogogue to reconsider thier political careers.
All of the name calling and viscious accusations against the conservative just is not working for them anymore.Imagine thier empty threats,thier paid union thugs at town hall meetings just was not enough,now more than ever we need to keep the pressure on these people so hard that it carries over into the 2010 elections and we vote those democrats out of washington.
We can do this,we have them in retreat,and we have thier poisoned fruit understood and figured out.All we need to do is keep spreading the truth,let them accuse us fear mongering etc.,etc. what does it matter the truth prevails,these liberals are so easy to defeat since thier only defense is a false accusation back,that doesn’t have any force!!!!!!!!It just appears to have force,and then they retreat because they have run out of things to accuse you/us for.We keep up the heat with truth,they will run into thier dark lies of deception,its not going to change but they will run out of lies to tell and the lies will lose any power and be nothing but something to forget and to scorn when remembered.
Fight on my brave truth filled friends.
If you didn’t catch Glenn Beck’s FOX News show on Monday at 5pmET you can download the full think here: http://usaguns.net/patriots/beckmonday.html
It’s an flv file, will run in your Browser. I’m not sure how long it will remain there, but it’s a 352MB sized file.
Glenn lays out the Apollo takeover of the Administration and Congress – I can’t call it anything else as Glenn says ” ~ THEY are writing the Bills and setting the direction that Obama is traveling” (my paraphrase). We need to stop them now, as our kids will not have any chance to do it later.
And now McCain is calling for bi-partisan health-care legislation from the Dems. McCain should be ex-communicated from the Republican party. He’s a loser and pulling the Republican party down. He needs to get out of politics; he’s a problem, not a solution. We don’t want a bi-partisan solution at this time. Yes, we do need health-care reform and whatever is done should be bi-partisan but what is done needs to be carefully considered and implemented in steps ,,, not a 1,500 page bill that no one has read and those that have read it cannot and do not understand. ?How stupid can Congress be? … Watch carefully! …. I fear they are stupid beyond our wildest imaginations!
Regarding this forum, I am coming in late, but can support a couple of observations.
1. Comments that reflect the idea that all money the Feds collect comes from the states, or from the people living in the states, are dead-on accurate. I enough states turn off the spigot, the fed will dry up.
2. I don’t believe the good people of Oklahoma elected or hired any person into any state office empowered to perform any act or duty while acting under duress from any other government, including the federal government. What the feds are rtying to do is probably illegal in every state in the union.
The problem we have here is the Progressives in Congress – http://tinyurl.com/m7qv2j – who are working with sworn enemies of America (e.g. George Soros) have been at this ‘destroy the U.S.’ longer than we have been working on defending the U.S. from enemies within. McCarthy was right all along (although he has been vindicated – http://tinyurl.com/nngtuz – the communists did terrible things to destroy him personally).
I hope the 9-12 march on DC becomes a million man march. We need to stop this crap before someone gets hurt.
Highlander Jaun I agree with your assessment about McCarthy having it right all along.I also agree we have allowed the communists and other enemies of our nation to operate unempeded for way to long.
The million man march on Washington September 10th through the 12Th is but
a small step in the right direction and also a giant leap in the right direction. I am going to be there,I hope you will be too.
I believe the American people are awake,alert,on the point,and will not
be persuaded to quit until our objectives are met.
It is becoming very sharp on point that we have enemies with in the State and with in the Federal government who are bent on destroying this nation.
I have faith in the people of this nation once they have reached consensus
they will press hard until the objectives committed to are reached.
It appears our enemy is reduced to ridicule as thier defense,like all
criminals they are weak in establishing innocence,chiefly because they are guilty and the facts speak for themselves.Once the american jury is in and they decide upon the facts justice will prevail and will prevail with swift
and decisive action. Have faith brother I watch the macro of the movement
and act in the micro,be of good courage,be strong in your convicitons,unite
with your fellow american and be careful to know the conservative camp is
not to be persuaded by ridicule,by threat of attack,fear of loss,for what have we to lose?Our lives? As for me if I lose my life in the pursuit of saving my fellow american from enemies within then my life has been well spent,and I have gained great reward,far greater than any gain this life could offer me,for the nation is worth more than all material wealth combined. BBe at peace and be sober my freind your comments are well received and appreciated.
The other thing AI noticed is no one is asking, who is Eric Holder to deny funding from the federal government? I thought only the congress could deny funding?
If you stop to think about how the money flows, you’ll understand why the Federal government can kick the States around. Employers withhold taxes from the paychecks of the individual employees. Then employers wire the money directly from their banks to the US Treasury. It never passes through the states control. Very few individuals or businesses have the means to say, “I’m just not going to wire that money to the Federal Government.” The States wait around for the Federal government to send some of the money back in connection with various programs. How did the Federal governent enforce the 55 MPH speed limit? By withholding highway funds from any state that didn’t have a 55 MPH limit.
Want to make a real change? Change the way money flows to the Federal government. The balance of power would shift if individuals and businesses deposited their taxes (Federal or otherwise) into bank accounts controlled by the States. Under normal circumstances, the States would then transfer the money into the US Treasury. But – in situations of a constitutional showdown – the States could withhold the transfer of the taxes.
This change in how money flows could be done by U.S. law or constitutional amendment. Either way, it’s going to require enough States getting on the same page.
Johnathan Russell said: This change in how money flows could be done by U.S. law or constitutional amendment. Either way, it’s going to require enough States getting on the same page.
You just may have hit on a way to really get the Fed’s attention!
How many businesses in a State are chartered or incorporated through the Federal Government, and how many are through the State? If the States set up a Federal Escrow Account into which ALL State chartered or incorporated businesses had to submit all of their tax monies, you can bet the Fed would be hurt in a hurry – even if it were only 20-30%.
I believe that Courts have already held that placing the required funds into an escrow account to force an action by the intended recipient is valid – how else do the tenants of a building get their landlord to resolve a dispute absent a protracted legal battle? Why couldn’t the States take the same tack?
“The more I learn about the Constitution, the more I realise this Government is UNconstitutional! ©”
Johnathan Russell has a very good point. The 16th Amendment does give the Federal Government the “power to lay and collect taxes on incomes” but it does not specifically define or direct “how” those revenues are to be transferred from the people of the various States into the US Treasury’s IRS. States should be more than able to “intervene” on behalf of their people if for no other reason than to provide an accountability audit to ensure State Government knows exactly how much tax revenue is being extracted, GAO notwithstanding. It would make good fiduciary sense and be a good business practice considering that an expectation does exists that some percentage of Federally collected tax revenues would be returned to State Government by Congressional allocation.
Also keep in mind also that only Congress can apportion or retract Federal funding to the various states. Czars or other appointed individuals cannot, but they can always say they can.
In consideration of thinking that you could get a bill through Congress, here’s a quote for you to ponder from William Ralph Inge (1860-1954):
“It is useless for sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while wolves remain of a different opinion.”
Get Congress to make the “Fair Tax” (www.FairTax.org)the only Federal federal income and payroll based source.
————————
What is the FairTax?
——
The FairTax plan is a comprehensive proposal that replaces all federal income and payroll based taxes with an integrated approach including:
* A progressive national retail sales tax.
* A prebate to ensure no American pays federal taxes on spending up to the poverty level.
* Dollar-for-dollar federal revenue neutrality.
* Repeal of the 16th Amendment through companion legislation.
—————–
The “Fair Tax” adds a level of transparency that has never before been seen.It also means that the STATES collect those taxes as a sales-tax!? The mechanism for collection already exists. The STATES will have that cash in hand and they “dole it out” to the Feds, not the other way around. The IRS ceases to exist as the terrorist organization that it is. No convoluted tax record-keeping required. No individual IRS records to keep for most people. Much cheaper manufacturing in the USA so that manufacturing comes back to the USA. Elimination of FedGov jobs, Auditors, Accountants, so there will be more workers to produce goods for the same costs to the economy.
Why it will never be passed: It makes it too much harder for the Congress Critters to steal from us by selling tax breaks or other perks for money for their war-chests or other considerations. For all the benefits to the People that the FT would bring it would be a detriment to our Congress Critters and their special interests … so what is most important to the Critter … the People (to whom he is supposedly bound in service) or the Critter? … I think we all know that answer.
We need a one term limit for life for ALL elected offices; it’s the only way to get control of our politicos. No war-chests, no-re-election to worry about, no professional politicians, … perhaps we would even get honest government (but only if we’re eternally vigilant will that happen).
We need small, Constitutional Federal government as well but one thing is certain … we don’t need this bloated, monstrosity that we have.
There appears to be ample evidence that the 16th Amendment is illegal as it has never been properly ratified. If this is proven to be true then there is no need to repeal the 16th Amendment as it does not exist and all laws and acts deriving from it are likewise illegal. Since ratification by many states violated their own Constitution rendering that their ratifications of the 16th Amendment are, likewise, illegal and therefor invalid. Again, “Fruit of the Poisonous Tree”. Who knew what Miranda would bring? It appears that there is more than enough improper ratifications to invalidate the 16th Amendment. Please also note that this amendment was foisted upon the People in the same year as the Federal Reserve, 1913! … Does anyone else smell a RAT?
The information above was obtained from the following site:
http://www.givemeliberty.org/features/taxes/notratified.htm
It would be great if someone following this thread would validate their info.
BigIron, Just how do you propose to “Get Congress to make the “Fair Tax” (www.FairTax.org) the only Federal federal income and payroll based source.”? We sheep – they wolves, remember!
I also wouldn’t recommend testing the theory that “the 16th Amendment is illegal” by not paying your taxes. The only case I know of that ever worked was with a FedEx pilot and was won only on a technicality, a procedural error by the IRS.
Our States have the power to act boldly but only if the people tell state Government that is what they want and that they are willing to stand behind them and deal with the heat that is sure to follow. I believe our State leaders are “chomping at the bit” to do something, as witnessed by the various “test” cases they have flown, but they are not willing to stand up and be slayed on big issues without we, the people, standing with them.
In light of a serious issue I received an e-mail that I found to be humurous and thought I share because of the content.
THE COUNTRY of TEXOARKLA
In case things get a little tougher during the next few months, we In LOUISIANA, TEXAS , OKLAHOMA & ARKANSAS have a plan.
Maybe you don’t know it, but LOUISIANA , TEXAS , OKLAHOMA , & ARKANSAS have a legal right to secede from the Union . (Reference the Texas/Louisiana-American Annexation Treaty of 1848.)
Us TEXOARKLANS love y’all Americans, but we’ll probably have to take action since Barack Obama won the election and is now the President of the U.S.A. We’ll miss ya’ll though.
Here is what can happen:
1. Barack Hussein Obama, after becoming the President of the United States , begins to try and create a socialist country, then TEXAS , LOUISIANA , ARKANSAS and OKLAHOMA announces that they are going to secede from the Union .
2. George W. Bush becomes the President of the Republic of TEXOARKLA . You might think that he doesn’t talk too pretty, but we haven’t had another terrorist attack and the economy was fine until the effects of Barney Frank and the Democrats lowering the qualifications for home loans came home to roost.
So what does TEXOARKLA have to do to survive as a Republic?
1. NASA is just south of Houston , Texas . We will control the space industry.
2. We refine over 90% of the gasoline in the United States .
3. Defense Industry–we have over 65% of it. The term “Don’t mess with TEXAS ,” will take on a whole new meaning.
4. Oil – we can supply all the oil that the Republic of TEXOARKLA will need for the next 300 years. What will the other states do? Gee, we don’t know. Why not ask Obama?
5. Natural Gas – again, we have all we need and it’s too bad about those Northern States. John Kerry and Al Gore will just have to figure out a way to keep them warm…
6. Computer Industry – we lead the nation in producing computer chips and communications equipment – small companies like Texas Instruments, Dell Computer, EDS, Raytheon, National Semiconductor, Motorola, Intel, AMD, Nortel, Alcatel, etc. The list goes on and on.
7. Medical Care – We have the research centers for cancer research, the best burn centers and the top trauma units in the world, as well as other large health centers.
8. We have enough colleges to keep educating and making smarter
citizens: University of Texas , Texas A&M, Texas Tech, University of Oklahoma , Oklahoma State University, UL-Lafayette, UL-Monroe, LSU, Louisiana Tech University , University of Arkansas , Arkansas State University , Baylor, Rice, TCU, SMU and MANY more.
9. We have an intelligent and energetic work force and it isn’t restricted by a bunch of unions. Here in TEXOARKLA, we are a Right-to-Work State and, therefore, it’s every man and woman for themselves. We just go out and get the job done.. And if we don’t like the way one company operates, we get a job somewhere else.
10. We have essential control of the paper, plastics, and insurance industries, etc.
11. In case of a foreign invasion, we have the TEXOARKLA National Guard, the TEXOARKLA Air National Guard, and several military bases. We don’t have an Army, but since everybody down here has at least six guns and a pile of ammo, we can raise an Army in 24 hours if we need one. If the situation really gets bad, we can always call the Department of Public Safety and ask them to send over the Texas Rangers.
12. We are totally self-sufficient in beef, poultry, hogs, and several types of grain, fruit and vegetables and let’s not forget seafood from the Gulf. Also, everybody down here knows how to cook them so that they taste good. We don’t need any food from somewhere else.
13. FIVE of the ten largest cities in the United States and THIRTY TWO of the 100 largest cities in the United States are located in TEXOARKLA. And TEXOARKLA also has more land than California , New York , New Jersey , Connecticut , Delaware , Hawaii , Massachusetts , Maryland , Rhode Island and Vermont combined.
14. Trade: FIVE of the ten largest ports in the United States are located in TEXOARKLA.
15. We also manufacture cars down here, but we don’t need to.
You see, nothing rusts in TEXOARKLA so our vehicles stay beautiful and run well for decades.
This just names a few of the items that will keep the Republic of TEXOARKLA in good shape. There isn’t a thing out there that we need and don’t have.
Now to the rest of you folks in the United States under President Obama:
Since you won’t have the refineries to get gas for your cars, only President Obama will be able to drive around in his big 9 mpg SUV. The rest of the United States will have to walk or ride bikes.
You won’t have any TV as the Space Center in Houston will cut off satellite communications.
You won’t have any natural gas to heat your homes, but since AlGore has predicted global warming, you will not need the gas as long as you survive the 2000 years it will take to get enough heat from Global Warming.
In other words, the rest of ya’ll in the USA are screwed!
Signed, The People of TEXOARKLA
TEXOARKLA, Ha Ha! Not much happened here in 1948 except the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo but it was a bumper year for revolution in Europe.
You don’t need a treaty to secede, nope, you don’t even need the Constitution. In reality almost all Federal control over states comes down to a basically a gentleman’s agreement or “business plan” that is not even in the Constitution. The Federal government “asks” State governments to do and spend on it’s behalf. The process is called Cooperative Federalism.
A Mild Mannered Succession – Do you really want to go there, are you sure? If so, then all the states have to do is just say no, they will no longer do the Federal government’s bidding. At that point the federal government will have to send uninvited federal employees out to all the states in order to get federal business done. They will, no doubt, not get a very friendly welcome thereby placing the now highly visible federal government on the defensive which would then probably lead to the creation of the United States Police force (kinda like in the movie “Escape from New York”) and that act in itself would mark the start of the slide of big government. It’s a simple plan – give them enough rope and they will hang themselves.
One problem to ponder – Can state governors recall the National Guard (Militia) if they are federally deployed and off fighting a war? Also, if the Federal government calls up the National Guard against insurrection and the State governors do not have any guardsmen available since they are all deployed defending the states against the Federal government, then what happens?
See, you really didn’t want to go there? A better plan is to just vote the bas__rds out of office. I wish, on that note, that someone would come up with a comprehensive web list of who not to vote for over the next few elections.
What I just described about Federalism and the gentleman’s agreement is real and if you are at all interested in this you need to understand it and it’s history. Here’s a wiki that makes a short read of it. It also has a short contrast on what is going on in the “United States of Europe” which is where I think a lot of these hair brained ideas are coming from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative_federalism
To think the writer has any power to ignite these states to leave the union is a mere fantasy.I think the writer needs to see it is far more encompassing than Texas ARKANSAS and louisianna.You need to know there are people from every state and the political storm is growing into a perfect storm.I don’t think the socialists in the Democratic Party ever dreamed Americans would come out in such vast numbers and resist them so fiercely.
I think we see a mounting force of americans who are drawing the line in the sand are absolutely fierce standing on this point by point demand for the socialist to back off and leave our liberty and Freedoms alone.
We the people resist and resist until they back down not us.
martin said: We the people resist and resist until they back down not us.
Agreed, but keep in mind that the Constitution is a contract between the States that established and granted permissions for the central Federal government. Back in the 1770’s less than 25% of the inhabitants were wiling to fight against the British Empire. Even then, the Federalists were primarily Royalists, and had almost anyone but George Washington been in his position, it is likely we would have some type of Imperial Leader.
Had Washington been born and raised in Britain until age 10 or 11, then came here and his life paralleled he likely would have accepted the position as Hamilton and the Federalists wanted, America’s King George. Even back in biblical times it was recognized that psychologically your core beliefs are created before you’re a teenager. Washington’s ‘world-view’ drummed into him would have only been that of the King as Leader, similar to the ‘world-view’ of Obama as that of an Islamist, a communist, and Dictator – courtesy of Indonesia and Frank Marshall.
Washington still didn’t get everything right; his put-down of the Whiskey Rebellion was outside of the permissions the States had granted the FedGov. Had the tariff been against imported spirits then if would have been valid; against individuals, Citizens of their respective States – it was wrong. Similarly, President Hoover’s put-down of the Bonus Army directly violated the First Amendment’s provision that FedGov is forbidden to prevent “… the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for redress of grievances.”
When you have a Law-Abiding People, who have by Law elected a usurper that can then twist and manage the levers of power in the manner our FedGov has been for the past hundred plus years, there may be little choice but to consider the unthinkable. Look back at the Kulaks or the Warsaw Ghetto uprisings to see what can happen when the Law is not on the side of Freedom.
Restoration or Revolution – it is our choice, now, if we want to maintain Freedom.
Those buttheads in Washingtom D.C.have no clue about what is going on. The tempers are close to boiling. A I ask is that noone forgets on election day 2010. I am an Oath Keeper. Then if all else fails…3%
It is about time that we think about where our future is heading. If all Americans ban together against Washington—unseat our elected officials in Washington and let the states take over the governing of the state.
If we stand together we have the power to win. Other wise we will let all our freedoms slip away one little bit at a time and then wake up one day as ask what happened. First we should impeach Obama. Then procede from there.
Tender thanks you championing details. It helped me in my responsibility
Speaking as UK citizen who spent a long time in Oki and hated almost everything about the quasi-religious and so often discriminatory nature of the politics of the place:
This level of internal Bullshitting is what gets US internal politics it's truly awful name worldwide, seriously folks, cut the bullshit and get it together, you really are going the way of Rome and will bankrupt us all in the process unless you pull your political heads out of you asses. All too often we hear states sound off about apparently threatened freedom and oppressive Federal enemies when what it really boils down to is this:
Oklahoma government wants not to have to speak or write any language other than English, despite the fact that this move would actively exclude a sizeable minority of Oklahoma residents from engaging in local government. and education services.
In return, federal government has responded thus:
"We cannot in good conscience fund state government programmes which actively discriminate against people who can't speak English as mandated by some Fed law….. So if you go ahead with this, fine, just don't ask us for money to fund it."
So,, Your state is free to legislate on this, it's 10th Amendment right is still protected but the Fed are also obliged by law not to fund programmes witch discriminate so you have a simple choice.
Oddly, the core point the DOJ are making about Oki actively discriminating on grounds of language and the obvious conflict with the constitutional value of Equal Rights for all is almost immediately lost amidst the noise of "That's Un-Constitutional, you can't tell us what to do, damn Feds"
For the Love of F@### America.
MartinBC The Federal Government never had the right to fund domestic State programs in the first place, much less deny the funds on the account of ANY policy choice chosen by the majority of the states population.
As for Government participation, all real government is local, and local governments essentially do what they want. If a state does not want to pay to provide any service in any language other then the majorty language in which the constitution and laws are written, thats their business. When in Rome do as the Romans, thats the common universal rule, you have no right to wals into Rome and demand they go thou great expense to accommodate for your unwillingness to adapt.
That's like someone going into your house and demanding the right to sleep in your bed and eat your food without even asking.
Granted of course native groups were here first, but the same native groups live on reservations and in general can do what ever they want whenever they want.
PS: I dont know why anyone would care what the "rest of the world" thinks of our internal politics.
Fair comment, it's not my country's politics, thankfully, so I'm not to clear on the details here. UK politics are much simpler being a far smaller country – although we do have similar issues with rebates and fuzzy lines of authority with Europe (The EU).
We (outsiders) care so much about US politics so much because, more than any other country, your political landscape impacts directly our own – even internal wrangling such as this bring to light the often odious, very Right Wing nature of the Bible Belt states like Oklahoma and, rightly or wrongly, gives the rest of the world the impression that this is what the West as a whole is like. In short, the political shortcomings of the US affect the reputation of the western world as a whole – This worries us. This really worried us when Bush was about
I really believe the key to destroy centralization of power is convincing people of all political pursuasions that local laws are just as good at enforcing behavior as any federal law. This is the argument centralizers always bring up. They say that if there isn't a federal law then there isn't any law at all. This is not true since local law can be enforced just as well, if not better, than the same federal law.